Newsvine, Socioeconomics and Idealism

News Type: none — Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:41 PM EST

business, money, newsvine, democracy, socialism, community, revenue, newsvine-beta, idealism

So this is something I've had brewing around in my head for the past few days. Everyone is talking about how Newsvine is different because it allows us to interact with the news etc, it's a new culture, blah blah blah. I don't mean to detract, I agree.

But Newsvine is unique in another way, too. Ever since the advent of internet ads, traffic = revenue. The basic business model has been: generate content that people want to see, they come to your site, and then you get money. This has worked remarkably well because of the relatively small investment you have to make, provided you have stumbled upon a successful concept (search engine, news, blog provider, poker, etc).

What I have never seen, however, is a model where the company pays its users to generate their own content. Perhaps I am simply underexposed, but this is unique in my experience. Rather than simply providing content and a forum in which to discuss it, the Newsvine crew has given us the chance to add our own content. Now, this is something that many people would be glad to do anyway, out of sheer histrionic narcissism - look at the blog culture! But they have taken it a step further and are allowing us to keep the ad revenue that we generate. THAT is where Newsvine seems, to me, to be unique. A redistribution of wealth along really fair lines - this is almost a socialist economic model.

Here we get from each according to his or her abilities (the ability to draw a crowd, which benefits the whole system), to each according to his or her contribution (the attention brought to the Newsvine community). You say, that's not socialism - socialism has "to each according to need." But, think about it - unlike more "real-world"ish socialistic models, the equality of opportunity is already in place. All anyone really needs to participate in this system is the ability to write their own posts and create their own column, and that is taken care of by the infrastructure. Everyone has, so to speak, their own printing press - so the redistribution of profit is an added bonus on top of the already egalitarian distribution of the "means of production."

So I said this was about socioeconomics; I have given you the economic half of my thought. How about the social?

My personal thoughts about democracy are that it doesn't function in our world - it is broken. People vote, but when they do so they aren't voting from a position where they know everything about the subject. There is massive ignorance, and my personal feeling is that unless everyone is equally educated about the subject matter a democracy is a farce, a horde of masses with vague feelings about certain issues, being led by their collective noses by politicians who drop buzzwords that stimulate them to vote one way or another (or not at all) on issues far more complex than they realize. (/rant)

Enter Newsvine - a closed system with the chance to become the best democracy I'm aware of. Here, rather than a voting structure divorced from information, we have a voting structure focussed on information. When you read my post and vote for it, you are not voting because I mentioned abortion - you are voting because you feel that what I have to say is worth reading, which suggests that you have read it. It is a system where every user is educated equally on the subject which they are asked to vote for - you have all read my essay, and if you like it you will vote for it, if you don't you won't. There aren't other motivations at play - this is a functioning democracy.

So there you have it - those who write the most interesting content get the most votes, and those who get the most votes are ostensibly making the most money. In my eyes, this makes Newsvine a democratic socialist ideal - so I'm eager to see how this unfolds in practice. We have yet to see the financial element at play. Imagine, though, thousands of users looking for something to read - and your name comes up in the "Featured Writers" block. Every time your name comes up, you are going to get a wad of cash - and your name will only come up if you consistently post fresh, interesting content that everyone wants to read.

Mike and the gang, this paradigm is really brilliant. I hope you make billions, not because I like you but because it would prove that not all systems based on popular rule are destined to corruption and failure.

14 Votes
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Public Discussion (19)

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{"commentId":8343,"authorDomain":"nick"}

nick

Thanks for your thoughtful analysis!

{"commentId":8343,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"nick"}

#1 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:29 PM EST

{"commentId":8371,"authorDomain":"tang"}

Calvin Tang

Very well put Mykola. Its terrific to see people getting their minds around what we're up to here. It takes a while using the system before you get past the "whoa green header!?", "why can't I edit my comments?" and "when do I get paid?". That's when you really start to question the social ramifications implied by the rules/features that govern Newsvine. This company began as a thought experiment of which we weren't entirely sure had any real-world potential. You beta testers have given us a great deal of evidence to show that the idea can at least take shape and grow into a fledgling community that is largely self-governed and based on collaboration and intelligent contributions by individuals who are given a platform to be heard above the din. Once the economics kick in (with the addition of the ad system and the opening to the public), the rubber will meet the road.

I'm sure we'll make many adjustments to the model along the way, as Newsvine grows, but we've been able to remain true to the premise that Newsvine was founded upon: give people a way to be heard, reward those who contribute useful thoughts and information and a crowd can be channeled into a powerful community. Furthermore, I've always held the idea that some of the best aspects of the Newsvine model would be put forth one day by the users themselves. We're just getting started.

{"commentId":8371,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"tang"}

#2 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:25 PM EST

{"commentId":8377,"authorDomain":"northern"}

Velcro Van

what, exactly, is socialist about newsvine's "economic model"? Has equal distribution of wealth even been proposed anywhere on this site?

So there you have it - those who write the most interesting content get the most votes, and those who get the most votes are ostensibly making the most money. In my eyes, this makes Newsvine a democratic socialist ideal...Every time your name comes up, you are going to get a wad of cash - and your name will only come up if you consistently post fresh, interesting content that everyone wants to read.

Umm....you are describing capitalism and a free-market system...not socialism.

{"commentId":8377,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"northern"}

#3 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:36 PM EST

{"commentId":8385,"authorDomain":"jhschreurs"}

Jaap Schreurs

Very, very, well said! The more and more I like Newsvine, though, the more and more I start to fear it won't turn out as I'd like it to.

In my opinion politics have to be a farce, because 'the public' isn't educated nor intelligent enough to decide on extremely complicated cases politicians have to deal with. Therefore the system was and should be that you chose politicians based on that you think théy are capable of making these decisions for you. Problems start arising when the qualifications and information used to decide on the capability of politicians aren't the most relevant. People start to decide based on religious viewing points and personality, instead of merits and capabilities, of which you are informed by the 'fourth power': the media.

Newsvine could removes the education part of the problem, thereby making the public more capable of making their decisions on, in this case, the rank of an article. What I fear, though, is that the 'intelligence' part will still be lacking. Meaning that people will like the 'wrong' articles, even when they have all the information necessary. I 'fear' the general public. I hope I'm very wrong to do so.

Controlling the community is what I think will be the biggest and quite the most unsolvable challenge. But maybe it will take a good course by itself.

{"commentId":8385,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"jhschreurs"}

#4 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:59 PM EST

{"commentId":8401,"authorDomain":"northern"}

Velcro Van

My personal thoughts about democracy are that it doesn't function in our world - it is broken...Enter Newsvine - a closed system with the chance to become the best democracy I'm aware of.

How does a news site compare with a government? where is the analogy? just because both have voting?

When you read my post and vote for it, you are not voting because I mentioned abortion - you are voting because you feel that what I have to say is worth reading, which suggests that you have read it.

What gives you the assurance that people won't vote based on their opinions of the subject matter?

{"commentId":8401,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"northern"}

#5 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:17 PM EST

{"commentId":8409,"authorDomain":"northern"}

Velcro Van

democracy…doesn't function in our world - it is broken. People vote, but when they do so they aren't voting from a position where they know everything about the subject. There is massive ignorance, and my personal feeling is that unless everyone is equally educated about the subject matter a democracy is a farce, a horde of masses with vague feelings about certain issues, being led by their collective noses by politicians who drop buzzwords that stimulate them to vote one way or another (or not at all) on issues far more complex than they realize.

It is partly because of these reasons that voting was originally restricted to landowners. Do you think we should return to the practice of restricting voting to a particular class of "certified" people? Exactly what type of education would qualify someone to vote on a particular issue?

What research do you have that reveals this massive ignorance?

{"commentId":8409,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"northern"}

#6 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:36 PM EST

{"commentId":8416,"authorDomain":"northern"}

Velcro Van

Problems start arising when the qualifications and information used to decide on the capability of politicians aren't the most relevant.

So, ideally, who should get to decide what's relevant?

People start to decide based on religious viewing points and personality, instead of merits and capabilities, of which you are informed by the 'fourth power': the media.

And what about Newsvine isn't the media??

What I fear, though, is that the 'intelligence' part will still be lacking. Meaning that people will like the 'wrong' articles, even when they have all the information necessary.

What makes an article 'wrong'?

{"commentId":8416,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"northern"}

#7 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:51 PM EST

{"commentId":8444,"authorDomain":"jhschreurs"}

Jaap Schreurs

What gives you the assurance that people won't vote based on their opinions of the subject matter?

Not being able to vote articles down helps.

So, ideally, who should get to decide what's relevant?

No-one, this is my eliteristic opinion.

And what about Newsvine isn't the media??

It's on the other side of the analogy.

What makes an article 'wrong'?

Just the fact that I don't like it.

Politics is, in my opinion, for a very large part about keeping the power with the same group of people. A way to do this is to spread it out as much as you can without losing controll, and by giving people the illusion they have more power then they do. The group is the political elite, and not Democrats or GOP.

How does a news site compare with a government? where is the analogy? just because both have voting?

I agree, however, that the analogy isn't quite perfect. It's just a very fun way to view Newsvine, and it opens the opertunity to discuss political systems too.

{"commentId":8444,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"jhschreurs"}

#8 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:01 PM EST

{"commentId":8490,"authorDomain":"darkside"}

Mykola Bilokonsky

Awesome, I'm glad this started some discussion. JDueck, excellent pressure on my argument, let me address some of your points:

Regarding the "socialist" nature of newsvine: I agree, there is a big healthy dose of Ayn Randian capitalism in there, but the basic idea - that every participant in this "society" has an equal share of the starting pie - is right out of a Marist wet dream. Also, remember that the Newsvine staff didn't have to split their profits with us at all - and yet they are, which is also right out of Marx. Rather than taking our labor, they are allowing us to use our labor for our own ends. The Marxist dream is a world where everyone starts out on the same level ground, and everyone works primarily for personal satisfaction - material benefits come on the side. What better description for this environment?

Regarding the News/Government dichotomy: you're right, there is a big difference between a news forum with public voting and an American-style democracy. However, both advocate the same basic idea - that the will of the public, as manifested by open voting, should dicate the allocation of resources and control. If I say that Newsvine is a better democracy than the US, I'm not saying we should put Mike D in charge of Washington - read that instead as me saying that perhaps democracy is better suited to a smaller forum where the things voted on are short and easily digestible.

Regarding people voting based on opinion and not some sort of absolute knowledge - of course they vote on their opinion. You could be writing the best sports articles in the history of humanity, but you won't get a single vote from me because I'm not interested in sports. Opinion is a priori a factor in the allocation of public support - but what's different about voting for a newsvine article as opposed to voting for a senator or presidential candidate is that with an article you have the entire thing in front of you - there aren't hidden sides to the article that you never saw, there aren't covert agendas going on that the article is trying to trick you into supporting. Your vote is based on how you feel about the article - and because of that, everyone has an equal vantage point, which, in my mind, makes the voting fair.

Regarding landowner-only voting etc - well, personally I'm in favor of a platonic philosopher king stepping into power through a military coup and setting all the world right, but until that day I guess I'll have to make do with democracy. My "research" regarding massive ignorance is on the news every night and in the election results. If people would read Chomsky instead of watching Friends before they go vote, perhaps things would improve - but I suppose I am a tourch elitist.

Jaap, you raise an interesting point about the "wrong" articles floating to the top. What is to make sure that the latest news about American casualties in Iraq stays up while stories about one-eyed kittens are kept a level below that? Well, nothing. But you, because of the tags, still have access to the stories you are interested in. If the majority of people think it's more important to read about cyclopticat than some hot topic in foreign relations, so be it. I agree that that's a problem, but at least we know they are fully informed prior to voting.

What thoughts?

{"commentId":8490,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"darkside"}

#9 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:13 PM EST

{"commentId":8516,"authorDomain":"tj"}

TopJedi

Should I be concerned that I thought I was exercising purely capitalistic tendencies here, but am really part of a near socialist economic model? Your comments are quite thought provoking especially since I didn't quite view Newsvine in this perspective.

Maybe the "closed system" of Newsvine is pure capitalism and we are the socialist economic engine that helps drive all of our profits from the outside. I thought you were about to suggest the Socialistic rewards in Newsvine will be to "each according to their seed."

Anyway I enjoyed your ideas, some laughs and a new perspective. Nice post Mykola.

{"commentId":8516,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"tj"}

#10 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:09 PM EST

{"commentId":8616,"authorDomain":"darkside"}

Mykola Bilokonsky

Each according to their seed! I love it!

{"commentId":8616,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"darkside"}

#11 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:39 PM EST

{"commentId":8633,"authorDomain":"darkside"}

Mykola Bilokonsky

And Calvin, I just read the link to your blog - that's cool, I'm glad that sometimes, people just have cool ideas and give them a go to see what happens. I hate sounding like a fanboy but I really am genuinely excited in watching this social experiment unfold.

Now I just need to figure out how to get myself in a position to make money! ;)

{"commentId":8633,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"darkside"}

1 vote

#12 - Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:53 PM EST

{"commentId":9459,"authorDomain":"tang"}

Calvin Tang

Mykola, I think you and a few others are in about as good of a position as possible at the moment. No one is going to become a millionaire from writing on Newsvine (at least I don't think so). You have to honestly enjoy writing and seeding. At this point, its pretty unclear what our traffic volume will be, and thus what the revenue potential for users is. The people who sign up thinking "when do I get paid and how much?" ahead of anything else probably won't ever get off the ground, because being a Newsvine contributor takes a bit of a leap of faith. Not everyone wants to sit down and spend the time to save links or to write a post on the pure basis of having an opinion to share. Those who do will likely end up generating a modest revenue stream, and become better at writing in the process. Our idea is that as they get better at contributing they help improve the quality of the site's content, and in turn the user base grows, increasing traffic and their revenue stream. This cycle is self-perpetuating, yet a profit motive alone is likely not enough to start the process in motion.

That being said, those of you (and you know who you are) who have taken the leap and started posting and seeding a great deal have done so, I believe, because you honestly have had something to say, and now you have the tools and the audience to go with it. Once the revenue starts coming in to you, it'll be the icing on the cake. Now for the icing itself: I think that people who establish themselves early on as being relatively well-spoken (er, well-written) stand to benefit most from the Newsvine model for a few reasons:

1. These early adopters will have a greater understanding of how to use the site effectively.

2. Readership will become compounding once we enable features that maximize the watchlist and enable/encourage communities within the community.

3. We're literally building the system around great writers, to get them maximum exposure and to enrich their experiences by building them the necessary tools. As we tweak our ranking algorithms, one of the things we look for are obvious shifts toward better content by more prolific contributors being more visible.

{"commentId":9459,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"tang"}

1 vote

#13 - Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:07 PM EST

{"commentId":2383427,"authorDomain":"farmer"}

oldfogey

Myk good article and look what it brought forth:

Calvin, your #13 comment is one of the most beautiful, most enticing and captivating I have ever read on Newsvine. Finally a Founding Member has let me and others know we can expect the framework to keep growing for the quilting. The promised watchlist and the placing of emphasis on quality are music to my ears. Love to my heart. Treasure for my chest. Thanks. Slowly but surely we will get there. Together!

{"commentId":2383427,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"farmer"}

2 votes

#13.1 - Wed Aug 6, 2008 4:30 PM EDT

{"commentId":2382164,"authorDomain":"darkside"}

Mykola Bilokonsky

We have yet to see the financial element at play. Imagine, though, thousands of users looking for something to read - and your name comes up in the "Featured Writers" block. Every time your name comes up, you are going to get a wad of cash - and your name will only come up if you consistently post fresh, interesting content that everyone wants to read.

Ah, the naiveté of youth. ;)

I'm enjoying a stroll down memory lane, through newsvine history. Anyone who happens to be tracking me has to read all this stuff, it's like watching season 1 simpsons. :)

{"commentId":2382164,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"darkside"}

3 votes

#14 - Wed Aug 6, 2008 2:43 PM EDT

{"commentId":2386364,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}

spiffie

Your writing was never as squiggly as season one Simpsons.

{"commentId":2386364,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"spiffie"}

2 votes

#14.1 - Wed Aug 6, 2008 10:50 PM EDT

{"commentId":2397763,"authorDomain":"fawnshore"}

Walt D

the naiveté of youth.

He doesn't look a thing like Jesus and he sure as hell doesn't talk like a gentleman anymore.

{"commentId":2397763,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"fawnshore"}

2 votes

#14.2 - Fri Aug 8, 2008 1:59 AM EDT

{"commentId":2397834,"authorDomain":"darkside"}

Mykola Bilokonsky

Haha, Walt D with the anachronistic Killers reference. Was that song even around when I wrote this?

{"commentId":2397834,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"darkside"}

2 votes

#14.3 - Fri Aug 8, 2008 2:19 AM EDT

{"commentId":2397908,"authorDomain":"fawnshore"}

Walt D

No and thank God for that. It would create a timeline paradox.

{"commentId":2397908,"threadId":"668","contentId":"60995","authorDomain":"fawnshore"}

1 vote

#14.4 - Fri Aug 8, 2008 2:40 AM EDT

{"canLink":false,"threadId":"668","isPrivate":false}

MYKOLA BILOKONSKY

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Newsvine, Socioeconomics and Idealism

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