State of the Vine: What the @!$%# is wrong with everyone?

I mean, that's kind of scary. I like the idea that I am able to speak freely on all manner of subjects without worrying about drawing fire, ya know?

It is scary, but it's the risk that journalists take every day by daring to speak the truth and 1) it means that you're probably doing something right or at the very least 2) you *are* being taken seriously.

I don't tend to delve into those topics, so I'm not particularly worried, but if I were to do so -- I would make sure I was ready to deal with the ramifications because I don't think you can jump in without being confronted on those topics.

It seems to me that what we're dealing with, primarily, is ONE @!$%# up by the staff. They made a mistake. With that said, I think we need to step back and think about all the times they *haven't* made mistakes and when they *have* defended us.

Are they having trouble admitting their mistake? Sure. I probably would too if I did something that justifiably offended you (Mykola) and immediately I was made out to be an awful person with an agenda who is out to get you despite our lengthy background.

In the end, I think for every person who isn't taking Dennis' case seriously *enough* there are just as many who aren't giving the Newsvine staff enough credit or forgiveness.

Forgive them for what exactly? They haven't said anything in regards to the JDL 'hit list'.

I am a firm believer in redemption of all sorts, so of course I forgive them. I just wish somebody up there would say something and answer the questions.

But the fact is, in this case he's acting as the representative of an organization and ego can't be allowed to enter into it. It's a difficult situation for them to be in...

That's not really fair. Much of the criticism I've seen levied *at* Calvin has been of the "we used to be so close" variety. If we want THEM to be a cold, number crunching business, we have to stop with the "I don't have daily contact with the staff every day" complaints.

We can't have it both ways.

Me, I'd like to find middle-ground.

The lack of an apology...

That's what irks me most about this whole escalating situation. Anyone who has been here -- or on any other forum -- for any length of time has probably made a mistake. At some point or another, we've all let passionate participation in a polarizing debate come very close to or even over the CoH line. Most of us realize our errors -- sooner more often than later -- and we apologize.

An apology after Dennis' time-out would've gone a long way toward avoiding all this brouhaha. Mike D. comes sort of close below, and recognizes that the incident provided an opportunity for learning. An apology when it happened could have provided an opportunity for more people to learn. It would've avoided dozens of angry articles, the voluntary self-silencing of valuable voices, and we could've saved our semi-annual melodrama orgy for something really juicy.

Apologizing fosters communication; refusing to apologize fosters resentment and misunderstanding. I believe that no sincere apology can ever come too late.

Solid, sane article, Myk. Thanks.

I have never commented directly on the Dennis thing but I'm going to say this, allowing us to see the thread that started all this mess would go a long way, with me at least, toward closure on this whole thing. Frankly, all I have to base judgment on is my knowledge of the people involved and how they've behaved in the past.

And frankly, judging by that, I have to say Dennis probably got screwed unless and until I see proof of the opposite.

Don't want to start things up by posting the whole thing again? Let's get a "user court", 9 old timers from NV, allow them to see it and make a judgment the rest of us can live with.

This is a direct result of weakness in the leadership position, sorry Calvin and Emily, but you guys dropped the ball badly on this.

Let's get a "user court", 9 old timers from NV, allow them to see it and make a judgment the rest of us can live with.

I'll tell you right now a lot of people won't be happy with who's on that list, no matter who's on it.

I agree with Mykola that there have been some problems here at Newsvine, but I would also point out that many members at this site no longer trust some of the 'old line' members. As Dolores Bernal pointed out, maybe it's time for some of you to stop complaining and just putting out better content, and especially drop by some folks' columns besides your own.

I have to agree with her on this one.

I see this article has some merit. But your credibility suffers when you post up stuff like this:

(Extract from Robert's comment on the article 'Welcome to the Reality Hotel') 'If the participants had contacted me about doing such a thing, (the Prank) I would have tried to talk them out of it. I know some users here, even today, still resent what happened. Not so much about the incident itself, but the continuing arrogant responses about it...even on this thread with threats of 'next time' or 'when we do it again'.

You responded with this:

Haha, and why, exactly, would the participants have ever even thought to ask you? You've demonstrated yourself to be a humorless throwback to Victorian pretension fused with an almost toxic inability to put words together in a way that even a particularly generous middle-school english teacher could call "interesting." Naturally this means you get a lot of pageviews, which tragically validates your sense of self-worth in what can only be considered a farcical existential miscommunication.'

You come with both good and maybe not-so-good stuff. Good being this article. Your comments probably NOT.

Yes, at some point in any argument it is best just to let go. I just had to do the same over in a thread where there was continuous carping about something, and my documentation of the contrary was met by petulant refusal to face reality. I then became quite tart in my replies, but eventually decided that no one there had any interest at getting smarter, only at getting louder, so I detracked.

Let it go Robert, and in the main I agree with you.

But honestly, I feel like Newsvine should compensate the users who spend hours a day making their site functional.

I agree, and I'll be the first to admit that for a long time I hoped that I'd be hired to do just that. At some point, though, I have to decide whether it's worth keeping on even with the prospect of NOT ever getting financially rewarded for that sort of "above and beyond" effort and either 1) scale down or 2) quit doing it.

I've tried scaling down, and I find that I don't have much desire to leave and less desire to lurk and not provide. That's what makes Newsvine *fun* to me. If it's not fun, I may as well leave which, again, I don't want to do.

Myk, what do you think of what David McGirr is doing in setting up essentially a troll patrol?

More moderators simply will not work. That's a "solution" that has failed any number of other sites facing similar problems. What Newsvine needs is more community counselors. People who think up and execute short and lengthy activities

I'm not convinced of this. Having Emily has helped some so why would having more Emily's not help more?
Would it fix everything? Of course not. But it'd help fix some things.

But honestly, I feel like Newsvine should compensate the users who spend hours a day making their site functional. I'm not saying 40k a year and benefits, mind you - but if a user is going into giant threads and moderating

People like Tedd who are going into threads full 'crap to catch and report COH violations (he says he reports something like 100 violations a day) SHOULD be paid in some way. I'm not if i'd call what he does moderating so much as community policing (though I know that term would cause a separate @!$%#storm because some don't want community policing. but we do seem to want someone to enforce the COH and part of the issue, at least for me right now,
is that Claus left over something which - as he explained it - was an obvious COH violation but the perpetator was never punished.

I think this is key:

The fact is that for many users it's simply not worth our time to defend MSNBC.com property

What I'm hearing from many is they will do the work, paid or not, to keep Newsvine proper moving but have little interest in helping deal with the MSNBC ugly stepchild.

Even if you don't think Newsvine itself will benefit from moderators I think the MSNBC seeds need to be moderated by someone, be it msnbc staff or whoever. Some (Scott I, Freed,) were pre-emptively seeding msnbc content thinking that was helping the community provided (and some questioned this) if they then stuck around to moderate it. Calvin has said that no we shouldn't do that but that still begs the question of what to do with the msnbc seeds.

I see us moving towards a balkanized community - the msnbc section and the OTHER section - and I'm not crazy about it.

Putting on my business hat, it has always bothered me that there is a totally imbalancd recognition of the investment by the core community who created a salable product. Yes, it would have been impossible for us without the six founders, but likewise, without the sweat equity we have poured in with millions of hours of unpaid effort gave them something the market would pay for.

When the buyout came instead of rewarding those who toiled to create value the workers were asked to do more for even less and those sitting comfortably with corporate salaries at MSNBC dumped their unmoderated content on us as if we should feel privileged to work for free for their logo alone.

What it did was negate any acknowledgment that the equity stake by the community builders should at least include some compensation. If nothing else it should offer a fence between those who built something of value and the tidal wave that rewards volume instead. In setting a sale price for any venture there is a quid pro quo evaluation and in this one the bulk of the sweat equity stake-holders were forgotten.

That's what raiders do, dismantle the operation and sell the parts. In this case they had the additional upside of keeping a volunteer workforce pumping along. It's an M&A dream come true.

This is not a pitch for me to get a paid gig. Though I do think others here should be added to the ranks to be compensated for a deep pocket corporation, skimming the cream off the top and making the most of good will to pad profits, it's not my thing. I don't want to be on a corporate payroll or have limits on what I say or a corporate entity affecting my actions or my independence.

This is an appeal for a reevaluation of what the community builders should have as a community. Value for value, we the community that was sold ought to have something that makes us feel some benefit trickled down. If nothing more, the power to police what is left standing.

Yes, it would have been impossible for us without the six founders, but likewise, without the sweat equity we have poured in with millions of hours of unpaid effort gave them something the market would pay for.

With that said, we were never told we'd be paid anything. Everything they promised, they've delivered. In some ways, they've improved upon what was *initially* delivered.

'Everything they promised, they've delivered. In some ways, they've improved upon what was *initially* delivered.'

I have to go with this opinion. Newsvine has actually improved my life in several ways, and I'm not speaking about money, although that is a nice gesture by the site. But, there is an intrinsic reward in knowing that when you post up an article here the possibility exists that thousands, or perhaps tens of thousands of people will read it.

Try doing that on your personal blog. Maybe. If you are lucky.

I don't have the magic answers for the problems at NV. Too bad MSNBC doesn't have their own discussion forum. But then...if they did a lot of people who might see your stuff might not. It's a double-edged sword. I still say: go for good content, use the '!' button when necessary, contact NV staff only when you feel you must, and try to worry less.

In that situation, from what I've been able to gather, I think he deserved better because he got banned being in a bad place at a bad time.

If asking for sources is equivalent to inflaming the situation I think every even-handed, logical Newsvine user over the past two and a half years would have been suspended on multiple occasions.

As Dennis has said multiple times, he got suspended for doing the exact same thing that he got an RAV for.

Gotcha.

BTW, I loved those suck it up parts. I've been thinking that all along.

One: Staff should have assets now far exceeding those of the "old days", what good if such assets are not used?

It has been my experience that as a corporation gets bigger people are asked to do more with less to preserve the bottom line.

Jason, got your point but is that any reason to do less with more?

OF starting a group? Man, this really must be Newsvine's End of Days...

;)

Please let me know should you require any help, Old Fogey.

LOL, Eric. Even old timers seem to have missed the fact that I recommended Groups before there were any. I didn't call them Groups. I called them Independent Publications owned and operated by the Founding Member. The idea was to create a syndication of local, regional or topical publications which were staffed by coordinated members. Despite the pooh poohing of Mike D. and puny support of Calvin I think this could still be done. It could be done using present facilities and remain within the CoH. I also think Corporate would come to recognize such structures as cash cows and deep root news hogs. Just need to get the proper setup and an enthusiastic and helpful following.

Careful Sandie, I just may be asking for help soon. Thanks

It has been my experience that as a corporation gets bigger people are asked to do more with less to preserve the bottom line.

Jason, I had the same thought. The NV staff are beholden to a parent company that not only expects growth on the development end, but has provided it in spades on the user end. Of course, more staffers would be great, but any outside opinions on Newsvine's growth prospects are merely speculative, and that's all they'll ever be. To Jerry:

Do you really think Newsvine staff is doing less with more?

Ryan Stolte-Sawa: Yes, in terms of what they have been doing for the Newsvine Community. They probably are working harder, more hours, and even accomplishing more, but toward what end? I imagine they are working harder to satisfy the upper levels (corporate) than they are to keep the lower levels (us) in check. This is as it should be but I will continue to urge Staff to bug Corporate for added assets to be applied to Newsvine. We certainly have added to Corporate.

but toward what end?

Well, business is business, as we all know. That's why what Myk says is particularly poignant: Newsvine is no longer a single community, and if you want solidarity, you have to make it for yourself. I think you and I are on the same page on this point.

This is as it should be but I will continue to urge Staff to bug Corporate for added assets to be applied to Newsvine. We certainly have added to Corporate.

I don't disagree, and I'm sure Newsvine's mamas and papas are doing everything they can to boost their standing with MSNBC, community drama notwithstanding. This site is still growing from a development standpoint, and the vast overhead of monitoring the community for quality might quite simply not be worth the parent company's time at this juncture.

I guess if it's a matter of priority, it's logical (to me) to galvanize Newsvine's infrastructure before tackling the soft issues. But it's also not unfair to point out that the short-term fallout might prove more damaging to Newsvine's, uh, soft core (x_x) in the future.

Staff didn't protect him but in fact succumbed to cyberterrorism acts.

Let's not overstate the case. Bullying for sure, but terrorism? Feh. That word has lost all meaning, along with Nazi, Liberal, and any of the other generic insult terms that are used to shut down debate.

OK, bullying then.

Seconded!

After I started my Sharia Watch Group, Dennis started his Counter-Group, purely to shaft me!

Well, that's awfully self-centered of you. Perhaps he felt that you started your group initially just to shaft him?

I'm trying to find a way to frame my opinion on all of this s/he started it BS, and once again I find some dead guy has said it better than I ever could. All of these complaints are no more than a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

After I started my Sharia Watch Group, Dennis started his Counter-Group, purely to shaft me!

Ah, no. Dennis started his group, Islam Anti-Defamation League for the following reason:

We, the members, will fight intolerance of the people of the Muslim faith. We realize that the vast majority of Muslims are law-abiding, peaceful citizens, and are not to blame for the extremism that they neither support nor engage in, and that it is wrong to judge them by those actions.

Of course, I can't link to his original article announcing the formation of his group, because he has taken all of his work down in protest. I can, however, link to the article announcing the RAV he was given for his work.

I find it absolutely despicable that you would attempt to characterize Dennis' efforts to push for tolerance as merely an effort to "shaft you," and I believe you should retract that statement after some careful thought.

After I started my Sharia Watch Group, Dennis started his Counter-Group, purely to shaft me!

I recall the group being started in part to disgust at a few racist groups (or groups with a racist slant) on Newsvine like yours

it was a personal shaft only in that he took the racism postings on Newvine personally.

Well, yes, racism and bigotry have a personal level, which is why they are abhorrent,

I notice many writers who seem to feel they can bowl over those who disagree with an opinion, in which case I ignore them. If the opinion does not stand on it's own merits then it is not worth getting into a back and forth over (yes they will bait you).

For me, since Day One, Newsvine has been an exercise in restraint and diplomacy (and I shudder to think what one could drag up from the dregs of my comment history, let alone my LiveJournal!). When I came to this community, it was smaller and full of vibrant voices I look up to even to this day.

Yes, on Newsvine, like anywhere else in life, there are people who are committed only to proving you wrong, and ignoring them is the path of least resistance. I, for one, consider such correspondence an exercise in patience and humility. (And, believe you me, those are two qualities I need to practise. ^_^)

Agreed, although I am Irish, so patience is something I must work extremely hard on.

I'm half Irish, half Ukrainian. You do the math. :)

The users you refer to in your first paragraph are often dummy accounts or "drive-by" users who join Newsvine simply to weigh in on a specific issue or article. I've seen them, too. They come with the territory.

If an article receives enough abuse reports, it is automatically removed from Newsvine. "Block voting" refers to a practise where a group of users explicitly agrees to flag an article for political reasons (like "we don't like this user" or "we will remove position y on topic x from publication").

Thanks for this information. Hmmm.... you'd think "management"--I don't know who they are--would be aware of the "block voting." Could they then dump the block-voters from the vine? (I guess they'd just come back with another disguise... from Joe-8205 to Joe-a406!) I guess it goes with the territory, but who kicks an article out if there are a bunch of flags? Shouldn't the group moderator have a say?

The staff--users whose comments appear in green boxes, like this one) can't monitor every abuse report issued on Newsvine, but they do work with users to stop conspicuous abuse like block voting (probably better named "block reporting" or "block flagging").

Yes, users who are repeatedly abusive or malicious are banned, but there are ways around everything--even IP monitoring. Malicious users come back, get dumped, come back, get dumped. Like an obsessive ex.

...who kicks an article out if there are a bunch of flags? Shouldn't the group moderator have a say?

After an article receives a certain number of abuse reports (I don't know how many) it is automatically removed from the system. I imagine when you say "group moderator" you mean the author of the offending article. When an article or a comment is deleted or removed from the system, Newsvine emails a delete notification to the author. That email includes steps to follow if the author believes their content was deleted in error. I hope that answers your question.

Marilyn, I always appreciate hearing your comments. You are sane and clear. I agree that Newsvine should be a place where you can be "pro-Israel" and I can be free to criticize some of Israel's policies without worrying that people think I am a hater. I was wondering what you think about the JDL business here lately. I'd really like to hear your thoughts.

Hi Redruby (and thanks Calvin), I was invited to a baseball game last evening, so left before seeing your question.

First of all, I had no idea JDL was still in existence. I do not agree with their methods of supporting Jews, though I do believe that irrational hatred of Jews exists today and must continue to be challenged.

When the list was first discussed I made my first visit to the JDL site and was dismayed to see the list of Newsviners. That kind of action does no good for anyone. If anything it made enemies here at Newsvine where they didn't exist before. It also gave ammunition to those who see conspiracies everywhere.

There are reasons though for the level of frustration that caused that action, wrongheaded though I feel it was.

Those of us who support Israel (Zionists) have been called racists, ziocons, Racist Zionists, baby-blood drinkers, etc. here on Newsvine over and over and over. With little or no outcry, except for the few of us who haven't had our voices silenced. The UN repudiated their odious Zionism Equals Racism Resolution (1975) years ago (1991), but that news has not found its way to some corners of the Vine even now.

I wrote an article a while ago called The Blame Game that discussed scapegoating, mobbing, etc. I wish more people understood the basics of stereotyping better. Stereotyping minorities of all sorts leads to bullying, mobbing, vigilantism and scapegoating, and ensuing hate crimes. That is the reason for the calls to curtail hate speech, even though it goes against total freedom of speech.

One reason that Jews and our supporters worry about the whispering campaigns against Zionists (most Jews are support Israel so would be called Zionists, so anti-zionist statements overwhelmingly target Jews, whether that's intended or not) is that they remind us of how violence against Jews begins.

It doesn't take outright anti-Jewish statements to move people to anti-Jewish hatred and violence. Just begin with stereotypes (everything from cheap, dirty, Christ killer, chosen people, manipulators of the Holocaust, racist, racist zionist, etc) and bigots can move people to cemetery desecration, firebombing synagogues, murdering Jews. That is why we take the lies being spread about us so seriously.

The same tactics can be used against Muslims, native peoples, African Americans, gays, minorities of all shapes and colors, sizes and religions.

I think it is high time that we all reflect on the larger situation. I'm dismayed at all the cries for revenge, using warlike terms. Revenge leads to vigilantism and worse.

This is not the time for revenge, vigilantism, or war. It is the time to hold out our hands across racial, religious, sexual divides. That is the way to move forward, together.

Hi, Marilyn, and all,

first, the fact that that site calls themselves JDL doesn't mean the are the JDL. They're just asshats. I happen to think their imposters, too. Name defamation, if you can even call it that, is a joke in a medium where anyone can say anything. Get over yourselves.

secondly, like Marilyn, I've tried to stay on the sidelines. I thought of giving up all posting on the Middle Est, but that would be as easy for me as changing my blood type. What I got from all this kerfluffle was that i tightened my own ship. I gave up my gift for snark in order to turn down the heat. Damn it all, it's a lot of work being nice! >:/

Re: departure of some "big guns". Turnover is normal. I belonged to several orchestras & other arts organizations. What I found was that the 20th year was the toughest, because this is about when you found out if the organization was resilient enough to outlast its founders. It would no longer be someone's "baby", and in being weaned from the nourishment of that monomaniacal passion that founders have,o get by on its merits. Maybe in the cyber world, that 20 years becomes 20 months, in which case, this is a normal cycle for newsvine to go through. I'm "middle-aged' as far a vine-ness goes. From time to time, I try to search out unfamiliar users to keep things fresh.

Re: Israel - if you want to know how I feel, visit my column. Things are run differently there.

Marilyn and Urbane, thank you for calm clear and thoughtful writing. I really want to understand better so will make a primitive analogy. I'm an American, I love this country and respect much of what the idealistic founding fathers envisioned. Yet, I am often critical of ways our leaders derail our constitution and betray that idealism. I am ashamed of our empire building around the world. However none of this makes me less of an American. I feel it is my duty due to my love of this country to call out wrong doing and corruption when I see it. It is my obligation if I really care. OK, so move the picture to Israel. I know for a fact that not every Jew thinks Israeli government is beyond reproach. Yet it seems that if anyone in any way criticizes Israel, and really, any criticism is of the government, not the people, they are then perceived as Jew haters. It's just not right nor true but I think when that rigidity is demonstrated people become frustrated. It's like coming up against a brick wall. Israel like any other country in the world is just not infallible. How can there be any discussion, reflection, or education if any criticism of Israel is taboo? Am I making any sense?? I ask this with the utmost of respect and sincerity.

Re Ruby, there are provocateurs on both sides of this debate. I have
reported both sides. I invite you to visit my column, then click on
"Israel" in tags box to the right. See what you think.
Here's
a good introduction to my take on this. In another seed, about PTSD
amongst the children of northern Israel, I took care to find links on
PTSD from Palestinian and Lebanese sources, too.
Do certain critics of Israel get under my skin? Hell, yes, but not because of their criticisms per se.
It's their lack of analysis, their excusing of Arab violence, and
mutual back-patting that bothers me. While they report new events, in
effect they have had not one new thing to say in ages. They clearly
disregard information that does not fit their preconceived view. They
are intellectually lazy. They choose fighting words. They sometimes
choose disreputable sources. On both sides, there are persons who have
decided in advance to dismiss anything the others write. I have to
honestly say that I have not seen Zionists defend bad behavior on the
Israeli government's part. If we are reticent, it is perhaps because
for many of us, with friends and relatives living there, this is not an
academic discussion, it is personal, and we keep our harsher
assessments en famille, just as you don't badmouth a relative
who has done wrong to just anybody. Why would I enter a discussion with
someone who calls Zionism racism, and Zionists Nazis? They are talking about me!

The best remedy I have heard for this kind of pointless arguing came
from an Israe/Palestine bb, the name of which I forget. It said:

Don't defend, rather explain.

I have to wonder what those who call Israelis Nazis and fascists,
and they are careless about distinguishing between government and
citizens. Their words sound hateful to me. I can't change how they do
what they dp, so I strive to stay true to myself.

Please do visit my column, and tell me what you think. Good and bad - I can take it ;)

I wanted to add this example of a "pro-Israel" viner commenting on violence by settlers against Palestinians in the West Bank:

Settler violence towards Palestinians is wrong and I'm glad
the IDF are protecting the Palestinians. It's the right thing to do and
shows the world that Israel is founded on sound societal values.

One more thought. It isn't everybody, all the time with respect to responses to criticism of Israel, it is some people, some of the time. Marilyn and I are just two of many who prove it. What we do not tolerate is delegitimization of Israel as a state. Do we feel threatened by delegitimization? Of course we do.

Now I have to do laundry. I'm not sure I made things clearer with all this. I really hate explaining myself.

http://www.newsvine.com/_cms/help/faq

(The button is on the top right of the page.)

New Viners can't link (to cut down on link spam until we know you better), so don't worry about that. It's normal. Help button upper right corner next to the banner ad. Also check out the Help Group on the Groups page, which has lots of help articles in it. Welcome to Newsvine, Kori.

Now that you mention it, I see the Help button just as clear as the pc in front of me. Thank you!! How long (months, years) before a newviner can post a link?

P.S. I hope you all get the issues straightened out I've been reading about in here. I think Newsvine is GREAT and have had alot of fun with it. I love everyone's humor, even some of the negative posts make me chuckle. What else can you do but laugh! Sorry to hear others are taking it so seriously as to cause harm. That's wrong - life is too short to take stuff like this too seriously. Thanks again. Enjoy!

How long (months, years) before a newviner can post a link?

Not long at all. Get a few comments out there that get a vote a two and you'll be well on your way.

Myk, wonderful take on the issue.

I don't think Dennis made a scene. Calvin and company did by not defending him and abusing his reputation.

The scene was made and Dennis left.

All the talk about moving forward is well and good, but in this one thread we've heard Calvin's words quickly rebutted by Dennis.

If we take the above comments by C and D on face value, Calvin is lying. Do we really want to go forward with him at the helm? Could it happen again?

I like another RAV holder's recent response to this situation. Syn.

I don't think Dennis made a scene.

I wasn't referring to anybody specifically especially not Dennis.

I wasn't referring to anybody specifically especially not Dennis.

Understood, but in other places and other articles, that idea is getting around. I just wanted to clear the air.

Is there a Newsvine group dedicated to this cause? If not, I'm more than willing to start one.

Yes. Dennis started it.

so what is it called now ?

Not lazy - concise & efficient!
And I agree with what you agree with, so I must be positively freakin' streamlined ;)